Plate Expectations

Our guest today is a qualified clinical nutritionist and the founder of Perth Health Collective in Mt Lawley. She specialises in nutrition, hormone health, gut health, and the relationship between what we eat and how our bodies feel every day. Everything Holly does is built around empowering her clients to take control of their health with more self-love and less deprivation. Welcome, Holly Moore, to Litheracy. Welcome, Holly Moore, to our podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for being here. I love food so much, so this conversation I'm so excited to have with you.

I mean, same. It's all about food.

Isn't it?

What do you wish someone had told you when you were younger that has nothing to do with your field but everything to do with being a woman?

So many things. Tell us all of them. I I think the big one for me is that it's okay to take up space in the world. I think it took me a really long time to learn that. Probably still learning it. But it's okay to get excited about things and have an opinion and um show that and also to dress in a way that makes you feel good and not pick clothes out for the purpose of blending in. You know, not be afraid to be too much.

Yeah. I once heard someone say that you should buy the clothes. What is it? Buy the clothes that um fit you, not fit into the clothes that you want.

Yes, exactly.

Something along those lines, but just it's okay it's okay to not try to fit into something that doesn't fit you. But like you said, it goes along the lines of taking up the space and be proud of who you are and and you deserve to be here.

Yeah. And I think not, you know, and showing I think excitement is a really big one. And I see that in my daughter and her friends, in that some of them are just so excited about things, and you can physically see them get excited, and others are already at that stage where they're like, oh, I better not show that it might be too much.

When do you think sorry, go

embrace that

Yeah. When do you think that um I saw a young girl I was shopping and I heard her and she was trying on pants and she said to her mom, Mom, my thighs are too powerful for these jeans.

I love that.

I just thought like we need more of that mentality around.

These jeans can't possibly contain just the amazingness that is me.

Like what when do we lose that like beautiful image of our bodies and switch to like the the it's supposed to be this way? Like that's

yeah, I don't know. I wish I knew. Um, and I think I can see it coming as well. Like I have a daughter and I just want to protect her from that. But

it's hard, isn't it?

It's really hard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, on that, on that note, what are the most common things that girls come into you with that you really have to unpack before you can even begin to teach them about nutrition?

Yeah, so I spend a lot of my time. Um, two big things I think. The first one is that your periods are not a burden or they shouldn't be a burden. A lot of the time they are. Like a lot of the time, I see girls and women come in, and it is, it feels like horrendous, something that you have to survive every month. But I think getting to that point where we can go, all of these things are information. Um, these are things that our body is trying to tell us to kind of dig a little bit deeper or figure out what's going on there or help you get the support in whatever area that you need to get. Um, and I think the second one would be that food isn't something that needs to be earned.

yeah.

It's it's just fuel, it's fuel for your body. You don't need to earn it by doing anything. You don't need to make up for a yesterday because you were naughty and ate something. That's not how food works.

Or reward yourself.

Yeah. So unraveling that is often a long process.

I still do that as an adult. I was like, oh, I was really good yesterday. I'm gonna treat myself. I'm gonna reward my.

I think a lot of it is ingrained as well. It's very difficult, and I think we all do that, but it's actively trying to push against that.

Yeah, you must have to unravel that with nearly everyone because I do feel like

myself included. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah

100%.

Um, so can we start with the basics? Talk me through what a protein is, what a carb is, what a fat is, and why does our body really need all three of them?

So um so they're the macro, they're your macronutrients, so they're the basis of all everything that we eat.

Yeah.

So a carb gives you quick energy. Um, it helps you, and it's your brain and your body's preferred energy source.

Yeah.

So it does help our brains function, our bodies function, it gives you that energy. Protein helps you feel full, so it helps keep us fuller for longer, and it helps build and repair uh muscle and tissue and um keep our hair strong and our nails strong and all of that kind of stuff. Fat is like the slow burner in the background. Um, it helps us, well, it allows us to absorb our fat-soluble nutrients. So without that fat, you're just not going to absorb them. Um, and it's the building blocks for our hormones.

Yeah.

So without fat, you can't make hormones. So all three of those things play a really big role in just keeping your body going day to day and performing all of those different things.

So I have heard that all of our cells as women have an estrogen receptor on it. Is that correct? Do you know? It's okay. That's okay. Um I would think that if fat is something that drives that, because typically when you say fat, like there's a lot of negative connotation around fat or carbs or with all of the dieting going on today. But we actually like our body needs that type of stuff, if especially the fats, if that's driving every single if that's driving the hormone and all of our cells have the hormone receptors. I would think that would be unbelievably important.

100%. I think I think protein is probably the only thing that hasn't got a bad wrap.

Yeah.

But um

fair.

It is not the only nutrient. Um, yeah, 100%. We need that fat. And your hormones do so much more than just um give you a period and allow you to get pregnant. You know, they play roles in so many other areas of your health, and you really don't want to jeopardize that.

What is metabolism?

Metabolism is the all of the things that your body is doing to keep you alive. So it's not just how fast you burn calories.

Yeah.

It's you know, your heartbeat is circulating oxygen through your body, it's regulating your temperature, it's keeping your brain working, it's all of the things that your body does without us even thinking about it.

Yeah.

As well as then on top of that, it's it's the digestion of your food. So once you've digested your food, whatever energy is left over is what goes into, you know, you're talking and you're laughing and you're working out and all of the things that we do intentionally.

That's just all connected, isn't it?

Yeah. And I think the thing to note as well is there's no way to boost your, you can't boost your metabolism. There's no magic pill that you can take that.

No exercise you can do that.

Automatically speed that up. Um, it doesn't work that way.

Is it a genetic factor?

It can be, yeah. There can be a genetic factor to it. Um, and a lot of it has to do with what you're eating and how you're moving and the way that you're living your life.

Oh, that's super interesting. So if you if you start your life kind of with a certain type of metabolism, do you always continue with that same metabolism or does it kind of flex and flow as you age, as your um as your lifestyle changes, as you become more sedentary or more active?

Yeah, it can change.

Okay

yeah, it goes up and down. So it depends what's going on in your body, in your life, what you're eating. So if you are heavily restricting your food intake, it will slow those functions down because it's your body is trying to do what it can to you effectively use the energy that it's got. So keeping that really good balance is a really good way to just maintain that and keep it steady.

Yeah, right.

Um what's happening hormonally at this age of their life and nutritionally? I know that is uh let's we're just gonna open up Pandora's box and just go for it because I had no idea what was happening hormonally when I was that age. I mean, you get the talk at school in health ed and that type of stuff, and you know you start your period around that time and you know, emotions feel high just because your body's kind of going through puberty and you're starting, you've got a lot more hormones, you know, rushing through. But how does nutrition play along with the hormone at that age?

I think I guess hormonally, it's a real phase of fluctuation. And it can take a few years to calibrate, I guess. So you might get your period and then you might not get another one for a few months, or one might be heavier and a little bit more painful than the next one might not be. But I think we don't what we see is we people are jumping in to fix that. And you don't necessarily need to fix it. We just need to wait for your body to calibrate and nutrition throughout that time, if you're not getting the things that you need, it's gonna be a lot harder for your body to do that. Um, if you're not getting the nutrients that you need and the appropriate levels of fat and protein and carbohydrates and fibre and all of those things, it is gonna be a lot harder to get that regulation happening and to get that kind of baseline so you can see, okay, this is my body, this is what my cycle is, this is what I can expect month to month, or this is this is an area that I do need help with.

Yeah.

Um, because if there's too many variables in there and you're cutting things out and you're restricting things or you're eating too much of something, it's going to really muddy those waters.

I've seen a lot of stuff recently about eating for your cycle. Is there truth to that? Is there um

I think yes, there is truth to that. I would tend to avoid, I think things can go too far. And I think the problem with a lot of these protocols is that there's always a grain of truth in them, but then people will just take it to the extreme. So there is truth to that, and sort of at different points in your cycle, you will be needing more of certain things. So, like in the second half of your cycle leading up to your period, you do need more energy, you need more calories. Not a lot more, but enough that we often will feel more hungry.

Yeah.

Because our body's going in a little bit more because it's metabolically demanding what we're trying to do. Um, and there are certain points in your cycle where you might want to eat more of certain nutrients to reduce pain or reduce inflammation that might be going on if you do get cramping around your period. You might want to eat more iron when you're having your period to kind of offset that loss there. So there definitely is truth to it, but I don't think it needs to go as far as like you must eat these things at each point in your cycle. But I think it's a good way of understanding your cycle as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Are there things that girls can do to like decrease the amount of pain that they're that they're going through, like nutritionally?

Yeah, absolutely. So um I think in a perfect world, and this is never going to be true for everyone.

Sure.

But what I like to see in my clients is that it's almost a surprise. Like, oh, I got my period. Here it is.

And I'm not, I'm not in pain.

And I'm not in a lot of pain.

I don't even know what that's like. What would that even be like?

So, and there's always going to be cases where that isn't possible. You know, people have endometriosis and there's often underlying things at play. But if none of that is happening, then you can eat more anti-inflammatory foods, you focus on your omega-3 fats. Um, magnesium can be really helpful at helping those muscles relax and reduce that pain. So it is about the food that we're eating, and anything that is going to create more inflammation is going to create more pain.

Ah. I never even think of that. Yeah. Before my period, I always get, I'm not a sweet person at all. I'm very like, give me a bowl of popcorn or some hot chips. But the chocolate craving is that's a real thing.

Yeah.

Where does that come from?

Often it'll be because you want it's like a magnet, because dark chocolate or is quite rich in magnesium.

Ah, is your body craving?

Is your body asking for that? Um, also, you know, it's delicious and gives a little bit of energy and a bit of a dopamine hit. I mean, you know, all of those things as well.

All the things we need headed into that time.

There's not always a deeper meaning sometimes. It's just I want some cake.

And that's okay.

Yeah, and that's okay.

Um, when you talk about the iron stores at that time, when you say iron, it doesn't necessarily need to be meat, right, to get that iron. There's so much iron in different types of like I looked the other day and the amount of iron that's in like red kidney beans.

Yeah.

It's a massive amount.

Yeah. I think there's um, yes, actually yes, there is. I think it's difficult. A lot of the time it's difficult to absorb it. So I guess this comes back to keeping a healthy gut. If your gut is going really well and you're able to digest properly and all of those things, um, absolutely, you can eat all of those really iron-rich plant-based foods and still get a decent amount of iron. If you're deficient, you're never going to be able to rectify that with plant-based foods alone. But to maintain it, yeah, absolutely. You don't just have to eat steak all of the time.

Yeah.

It is the easiest way. Yep. Because your body can readily absorb the iron and it's, you know, knows what to do with it.

Yep. Is that like the haem and the non-haem iron? So one is more your body can digest it and absorb it. Is it the haem iron?

The haem iron is like the that animal base. It's the iron that we have in our system. So it just is same, same.

Got it.

Whereas the non-haem, we have to convert that.

And how how does a girl know if she's deficient or low in iron?

So you can do a blood test. I'd like if you were feeling particularly tired, maybe if you were getting sick very easily or your hair was falling out, if you were noticing that you were getting bruised, usually it's the fatigue is the first thing. It also, if you're low in iron, it can make your periods heavier. So if all of a sudden you're like really tired, my periods are really heavy, I would definitely be getting your iron checked.

What's the connection there that if you're low on iron, you bleed more?

Um it's uh yeah, I always forget that one.

Yeah, that's okay.

Yeah. Um so it goes both ways. So a heavy period will cause low iron, but then if your iron is low, it can also make your period heavier. So it's this vicious cycle. Yeah.

Most girls, including me, have no idea that their nutritional needs change across the cycle. Why does the food need to shift to support them through the month?

I guess similar to what we said before, at particular times you will need more of certain things. And you will be using more energy at certain times.

Do you know what the different cycles are?

Like phases of your cycle?

Can you explain that for us?

Yeah. So the first phase is your period. So that's phase one. So however long you're bleeding for, and then following on from that, you've got your follicular phase, which is when your egg is developing, ready to kind of be released.

Yeah. Yeah.

So during that phase is usually when we feel more steady. So usually our mood is a lot better, um, our energy is a little bit higher, we're feeling pretty good with life.

Yeah.

Um, then you ovulate, and that's usually a couple of days. One day, well, it's not a couple of days, it's like one day.

Yeah, yeah. Um the ovulation is just the egg.

It's just the egg release.

Yeah.

Yeah. And off you go. And then you move into that luteal phase, which is usually where we see those ups and downs with energy and mood, and you start to get a little bit more pain leading up to your period. And then we're back to the period again.

And when am I feeling my best?

After your period finishes, before you ovulate.

Okay.

Is usually not for everyone, but yeah, usually you'll be like, yeah, I feel great.

Yeah. And then after

You're feeling more social.

Yeah. And after you ovulate, when your body starts to prepare for the shedding of your uterus, then your body starts requiring more because it's doing more. Is that

Yeah, it's doing a lot more. It's sort of a little bit more demanding, and the hormonal fluctuations are kind of creating if you especially if you're not producing enough progesterone. So the egg itself, once you don't get pregnant, that produces your progesterone. Um, so if that's not optimal, you will get those mood crashes.

Yeah.

Or that really low mood towards your period.

And is there something better to eat, like you said, iron headed into your period? Yeah. More carbs, more fats, more proteins.

Yeah.

When before you ovulate, is there anything better to eat or is it kind of like you're feeling good, you go nuts? That kind of

Pretty much. I mean, keep it balanced. I think whatever you eat in that first half obviously is going to carry you through the second half of your cycle as well. So you don't want to just go, whatever, I'm going to eat all of the, you know, things.

All of the delicious things.

Because you still, if you are, if you go too far, you can still create that inflammation. But overall, yeah, you just want to kind of keep it really nice and balanced. Often with clients, I'll say just add a snack in that second half of your cycle.

Oh, yeah.

And it might just sustain you a little bit better. You know, you you'll curb that that cravings, give you a little bit more energy. So it doesn't have to be excessive.

Yeah.

But just understanding that you might need a little bit more and it's not just, you know, hmm, PMS.

Yeah. Yeah. Such a good one.

Let's talk about the pill and contraception while we're on the topic of hormones. That's something that a lot of girls are thinking about going on, they're already on, and there's a lot of misinformation on social media uh from a science perspective about the misinformation that you're on the pill and it's going to mess up your gut or it's really any type of contraception. What do you think that girls deserve to know about that space?

Yeah, it's a really hard one because I think the pill is such a value, it can be such a valuable tool for a lot of people. But I think I feel quite strongly that before anyone starts taking any medication, you need to know what it's doing, what it's not going to do, because I think there's a lot of false promises out there as well in terms of like take the pill and your acne will clear up. And it might do that, but it's not fixing the problem in the first place, and also any kind of side effects and what the longer term effects of that can be. So if you start taking the pill as soon as you get your period and it hasn't regulated yet, you're essentially hitting pause on that. So when you eventually come off the pill, you still have to go through that process of regulating that because your body never got a chance to do that. So I think this rhetoric that we sometimes see about the pill regulates your hormones, it it doesn't do that. It's not really accurate, it it switches the them off. It doesn't, it stops ovulation.

Yeah.

So it kind of pauses that reproductive cycle so you don't get pregnant. But it also pauses a lot of the other stuff that comes with ovulation that can be really beneficial.

Yeah.

So a lot of people will see a difference in their mood because of that lack of progesterone, and it can disrupt your gut microbiome as well, and it can contribute to depletion in nutrients as well, depending on how long you're on it for, what else is going on in your life, it doesn't guarantee that those things are going to happen, but it can contribute to those. So I think it's just about awareness and having a really good conversation with your GP before you start taking it or before you just make that decision and understanding what it's doing.

Yeah, that's a good call

So let's talk about the gut health. Because um I'm excited to like dig into this one. There's so much about like how your gut is your second brain, right? What does that mean? Because I got I got one brain and now I gotta think about two brains.

We just like to throw an extra thing in there for you. I think it essentially when people say that is because the gut is its own ecosystem and it's got nerve cells in there and it's got bacteria that are doing all these different things in our body. And the more we learn about it, the more we understand how much of a role it plays in other areas of our health that aren't just digesting our food.

Yep.

So it your brain and your gut talk to each other all the time. So some people will have like an upset tummy if they're stressed or anxious, and it goes the other way. If your gut isn't working properly, if your microbiome, the bacteria that live in there are out of whack, you might find that that's causing anxiety, or you're feeling anxious or tired or brain foggy, but it's coming from your gut. So there's that relationship between the two.

And when we talk about guts, we're not just talking about like the stomach, we're talking about like the large intestine, the small intestine, like everything. Is there anything else besides just those three things that are included? I mean, that's a lot of space, a lot of real estate. But is there anything else like your pancreas or your liver, your kidneys that is also included in the gut?

So I always explain it like it comes, starts from your mouth and goes all the way through , and then also I we tend to include like the liver, the pancreas, the gallbladder in that sort of collective conversation.

That's all gut-related as well.

Yeah.

Yep. Okay. That's good to know. What does what's happening in my gut or what I'm eating directly impact my mood, my immune system, or my hormone health?

So everything that you eat will have an impact on how your gut works, but I guess specifically we're talking about that microbiome. So we can either feed that and nourish it or not.

Yeah.

Um, and then that will have that flow on effect. So aside from just the digestive process, so you're not going to feel good if you are bloated all the time or you can't go to the toilet.

Yep.

Outside of that, your microbiome is working with your body to regulate your mood via neurotransmitters, and it helps process and metabolise your hormones and get rid of anything that you don't need.

Yeah.

So if that's not working properly, all of those things will be out of whack.

Yeah.

Um, so you will have those impacts on your mood and your hormones. So often, if you have those hormonal issues, it might just be because you're not clearing them out properly.

And that'll affect your immune system, right? If you're not eating properly, then you could be getting more sick. Can you get like autoimmune disorders if you're not eating properly, or is that just too far?

No.

Okay.

Not really.

But it'll affect

your immune function

how much your getting sick or

and it will affect how much you're getting sick for sure. Like you can be really susceptible to things if anything in that whole digestive tract is struggling or not working effectively.

Yeah. How do I know if I'm struggling with my with my gut or my my second brain?

I think it's about how you're feeling day-to-day. If you have covered off all the, you know, really obvious things. If you've been to your doctor and you've done the bloods and they're and you know, you're not deficient in anything, and then I would go, well, what else is at play? And maybe I need to look a little bit deeper. You might have digestive issues as well. So you might go, okay, I'm under a lot of stress, and every time I get stressed, I have to go to the toilet. Or I get stomach pain. So that would be one of the signs for sure.

Is keeping a food diary a really good way to be able to like understand what you're eating and how that's affecting you, or what times of the month. Like how how reliable is the food diary?

Yeah. Look, sometimes it can be really helpful to identify patterns. But I think where we it can come undone is if we get too worried about what the food is, what effect the food is having. So often people will come in and they'll be like, I'll I'll react to apples and then I'll eat out an apple the next day and I'll be completely fine. It's not the it's not the apple. It's how your gut is processing that and the environment that it's going into. Once we fix that, those kind of food issues tend to resolve.

Interesting. Can you develop allergies to food later in life? Yeah, you can. How does it work? Unfortunately. I know. I used to be able to eat all sorts of stuff. I used to have no problem with bread, and now I can't eat bread, and it's devastating to me.

Yeah.

I'm like genuinely.

It might be your gut.

It might be my gut. I'm actually checking it out, but yes.

You can develop allergies and in and sensitivities. So there's a big difference. Allergies themselves, I'm definitely not an expert on those. That, you know, that's not my area.

What does a happy gut feel like? Does farting and burping, is that all like happy signs?

Like it can be.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it depends.

You don't want to give people permission to like fart and burp at the table and say like compliments to the chef, but is that genuinely a sign?

Yeah, I mean, look, I think within range, often it'll be, is it to the point of discomfort? That would be my kind of meter for for that. So is it actually causing you an issue? Is it disrupting your day? Or is it like really offensive? Then there might be an issue going on there. But if, you know, if it's just, you know, part of it. If you

do one or two, yeah,

Great.

Easy peasy

Love that for you.

Is that is that mainly what a happy gut feels like? Is that how you know that your your stomach is happy? Like there's maybe no bloating, or there's maybe no other symptoms that might arise from that?

I think a happy gut is one that you don't have to think about. So, you know, not running that mental reel all the time of like, is this going to make me bloated? Is this stomach discomfort normal or is it because of something I ate? Am I gonna go to the toilet today? And also, you know, why am I if you're just tired all the time? If you've all of a sudden developed eczema and you don't know why, something like that as well. But a happy gut, yeah, you should just be able to eat your food. Like, we all will get bloated occasionally. You will all have an upset stomach every so often, but it shouldn't be the norm. It shouldn't be something that you have to think about every day.

Yeah, fair enough.

Yeah.

Is it possible that for a teenage girl who feels anxious, exhausted, and flat all the time, it's not being traumatic. She's just missing something nutritionally.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm not we I'm not saying that we can fix all the problems with nutrition.

Of course.

But I think it's a really easy intervention that can have a significant impact. So I think let's not overlook it. Often it'll be the most common things I see or that I would find in women that feel that way, is they're either underfueling themselves.

Yeah.

So just not getting enough of the things that you need day to day. So you're just not going to feel like your best. Um, it can be deficiencies as well, like actual deficiencies because of whatever reason, or you have a higher demand for certain things at certain times in your life, not just throughout your cycle, but um if you're under a period of really high stress, you're going to need more things like magnesium B vitamins. If you're doing a lot of training for whatever reason, you might need more protein and carbohydrates. So if there is a higher demand and you're not meeting it, you're gonna feel that way as well.

Yeah, just on that carbohydrates for a second, I just thought of a question. The simple carbohydrates and the complex carbohydrates, can you just touch on that for two seconds? Because I'm very confused about like is pasta bad for you? Is it like it feels like the simple carbs have been a bit demonised? Demonised, a bit villainised, if you will.

I think they all have a place.

It's just moderation.

It's moderation. Those complex carbs are going to give you less of a blood sugar spike. So they are better in terms of keeping that sustained energy and not having that blood sugar go up and down, and they're going to feed your microbiome because often they're the things that are higher in fibre. But it doesn't mean that the simple carbs are bad. It just means that they serve a different purpose.

Maybe a sometimes food.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Cool.

Or in combination with other things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So on the subject of sometimes things, caffeine, alcohol, energy drinks, what is that doing inside your guts?

While, I have my extra coffee.

It's okay. I mean, we all do it. It's part of life. And right? So it's it's just getting that information out that's not like is that a moderation thing as well?

Yeah, look, I think there's obviously my nutritionist hat where I'm like, well, really, none of us should be drinking alcohol.

Tell us what both hats feel like.

But in reality, we all enjoy those things. So let's look at what they're actually doing and and how we might be able to moderate that. Caffeine itself, you know, is a stimulant. Teenagers in particular are more sensitive to the stimulant effects of caffeine. So they're more likely to have those side effects of like shakiness or anxiety. And it can interfere with the absorption of nutrients as well. So there is definitely that to play in mind when you're having it, what are you having it with, all of those types of things. And then if you add sugar on top, like in an energy drink, you get all of those caffeine effects, but also the effects of the sugar, which is that blood sugar up and then the crash again.

Yeah. then you've got to take another one.

And then, yeah, exactly. And then you're tired again and you're like, I'll just have another energy drink. But I guess to put it in perspective, if you have one cough like standard coffee, it takes about 10 hours for that caffeine to metabolise through your system.

Holy cow.

So if you're drinking coffee at like 4 p.m., it's still in, you still your sleep is not going to be that deep restorative sleep because you you've still got that caffeine going around in your in your system. And then alcohol. Alcohol it definitely has an impact on your gut. It it will have an impact on that microbiome for sure, and the way your body's working and its uh digestion. Um, and it will impact your mood and your sleep. So it interferes with the way that your neurotransmitters all work and and the way that they will modulate your mood. And it's just there's no nutritional value in it. There are kind of like

So a glass of wine, it's not good for your heart.

Look, glass of red wine, antioxidants.

I can talk myself into anything.

But I think it's also about social connection. Yeah, you know, it's a huge part of that. So if that actually fills your cup and brings you joy and you go out and you have a glass of wine with a friend.

Yeah.

Love that.

Yeah. What happens when you combine an energy drink and alcohol?

Yeah, look, I I don't remember.

I have done it. I have done it when I was in my 20s. I mean, there was Red Bull had just came come out. The Red Bull and vodka. Yeah. Go on.

I used to do that also.

How dangerous is that?

Really dangerous. Yeah, it's not good. It's not good for your health. Like I get it. I do. And I was I've been there and you know done that. And um, but knowing what I know now, like that is is one of I don't go near energy drinks now and it is a hard rule for me in terms of like my daughter. But you know, coffee, glass of wine.

Yep

Not the end of the world.

Fair enough.

It's about what you do consistently, not what you do occasionally.

Yeah, that's a really good motto to live

by as well. Let's talk about social media influencers that eat this, not that, the in intermis intermittent fasting, the what I eat in a day. Those are trends that I have seen all across TikTok and all across Instagram. What's the culture doing to a teenage girl's relationship with food and her body?

It's so hard now. And I really don't envy teenage girls now because you know, I know how hard it was when I was a teenager and I didn't have any of that.

Yeah.

So I can only imagine navigating that, but it's coming from all angles. And the problem is that you interact with one thing on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, and you just get fed more of the same. So then before you know it, your whole feed is people living lives that are completely different to you, who look completely different to you, eating completely different things, and it makes you feel like you're not enough, and that's what you should be doing. And I think the problem with that diet culture is it assigns that moral value to food. And food is not inherently good or bad, it's just fuel. Um, and and we just see these images or and they're beautiful, aesthetic, you know, it's very appealing.

Of course it is.

I get it. Sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, maybe I need to be doing that.

I do too. I do too.

But I my I I would say try and fill your feed with people that look like you or have similar lives to you, or are talking about the way that you want to be so that it stays aspirational and not a source of like judgment or shame.

Stress.

Stress.

Yeah. It's amazing how something that really should just be fuel becomes such an issue that that we entangle ourselves up into, and then it becomes about our self-worth and it it it depends. like things trigger off of that, right? It's slippery slopes, down rabbit holes, down all sorts of different stuff that like you and I didn't have to deal with.

Slippery slopes. Yeah.

Yeah. So there's that thing we were talking about. I'm gonna pronounce it wrong. Um, orthorexia.

Yeah.

Yeah. The or the healthy eating obsession becoming a term of its own. You've heard of this then.

Yeah.

Yeah, what is it?

It's essentially like an extreme, like a disordered relationship with food, but instead of restriction. Well, it is restrictive, but instead of not eating, it's being obsessively eating only healthy food or like clean food or whatever, you know, I don't eat I only eat organic or I only eat raw food or I only eat, I won't eat condiments or whatever it might be to the point where you're probably not getting what you need because you're avoiding so many things. But it's kind of dressed up in this, I'm being healthy.

Or is it anything that affects your lifestyle, right? Anything affects like you going out to eat and I can't eat that, or I can't eat here, or yeah, I can't do that.

I can't do that. And also I think when you do slip up that that shame spiral as, oh my God, I can't even manage to do this. How am I like I don't have any self-control, I'm lazy, all of those things just from you know, you slipped up one time.

That we tell ourselves over and over again. I do it as an adult, especially when I eat something that I'm not supposed to eat. You do that, there's that shame there, and it shouldn't be. It should be how to I don't know how to reframe it for this next generation.

It's really difficult.

Yeah, I can imagine you've got a really difficult job of trying to

It's really, really hard. I think we can only keep saying it over and over and over and give examples and trying and try and promote people that we do see in that public space that are kind of a little bit more realistic or a little bit moderate or you know, being a little bit more real and and trying not to buy into the other stuff.

Yeah, totally fair.

What's the biggest lie the wellness industry is currently telling teenage girls and who profits from it? Because you know somebody's profiting from it, unfortunately.

The wellness industry itself, I think, is hugely profitable because it relies on us feeling bad about ourselves. If we all felt really good the way that we are, then they wouldn't make any money, right? So it's in their best interest financially to keep that message going. Like you could be better, you can be healthier, you could look a different way. So the thing that I'm seeing a lot at the moment is that health has an aesthetic. You know, health doesn't have a look. You can't tell if someone's healthy by looking at them. Um but it's this kind of aspirational, can I say that in quote marks, way of looking, eating, living. And look, if that works for you, if if you have the means and that's what you enjoy, love that for you. But it also health can look like being on your walking pad in your pyjamas, you know, before you have your breakfast. Also fantastic. It doesn't have a look. And I think that's one of the biggest things at the moment is that trying to fit into that mould of like, well, this is what these wellness girls are doing, therefore that must be the thing to do. This is how I need to be.

Yeah.

So it's very difficult.

Detrimental too

Yeah cause they are gorgeous,

of course.

But it doesn't mean that the people that are not doing that are not equally gorgeous.

Less than.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think if more women thought my body is the least interesting thing about me.

Oh my god.

And more about I have so many other things that are more interesting about me. Like what a different society we could create for them.

What could I have achieved in the last 20 years with all that mental energy that was spent worrying about my body?

Yes. And it is it it's a ton of energy.

Yeah.

Because when you try on clothes and they don't fit, it's not the clothes don't fit me, it's I don't fit the clothes, right? And it's you you make it, I have done it a million times. I make it about myself. I make it about how I am not measuring up or I need to lose weight here. And when did skinny become the thing that we all need to aspire to be? When why doesn't the strong thighs aspire to what we're all trying to be?

Yeah, 100%. And there's some amazing role models out there at the moment that are not that. There's an American rugby player who I love. She's hilarious, and she's gorgeous, and she's been in sports illustrated and all of that, but she is not skinny. You know, she is strong. She's a rugby player, she's a pro athlete, so she's very healthy, but she doesn't fit that aesthetic. But she's very funny, and I love I love following her. I love it when she pops up on my feed.

Yeah, that's good.

So I think it's about seeking those people out and then promoting them and following them and making sure that you're having that in front of your face all the time.

Yeah.

Because the only way to offset the other stuff is to put other stuff in its place. Because I don't think we're gonna be we're not gonna ever stop that scrolling.

No

I think that's just here to stay.

I wish we could stop.

Yeah.

So we've got questions from our panel, and I've got three questions from the girls. There's a girl in my class that I can hear throwing up her lunch every day. What do I do?

Oh, it's so hard. It's so hard to be in that situation. Look, this is not my area really either. I but I do think that you need to find someone, an adult that you trust. Someone in the school, a counsellor, a teacher, or a parent, that you can pass that on to. So that they can make sure that this girl gets the support that she needs because it is something that needs to kind of be supported and it can be really serious. So I think the fact that she's asking about how to help is a really good sign.

And it's not, it's also not something like a young child like that needs to carry.

No, you don't need to carry that. You need to find someone that you can hand that over onto.

Yeah. Good advice. Should girls my age be taking vitamins or collagen?

Not necessarily. I think they can be really helpful. And I think as, you know, in in that teenage period, a lot of girls are doing a lot of sport or they're very active or they're under a lot of stress.

Yeah.

So those situations, supplements can be helpful to fill those gaps. But I think the advice that I would have is to find someone who understands your situation and your needs and work from there.

Yeah.

And there's no need to go overboard, but specific things can be beneficial if you get the right things.

Yeah. Yeah. What can I eat that's good for me when I don't have a lot of time during the day with school and sport, and I don't always have a way of keeping foods hot or cold.

Yeah. So heaps of stuff.

Cool.

I'm actually a really big fan of those little thermoses. So like you can keep them really, they stay hot for like 12 hours or something. Um, so you can put your food in it at the start of the day and carry that. And I do that all the time. So that's one option to keep things hot and you can have a full meal in there. Otherwise, if you uh do need stuff that you can just kind of put in your backpack or whatever, you know, wraps, rice crackers, any kind of cracker, tin of tuna, you know, yeah, nuts, seeds, chuck a protein bar in there if you want to. Fruit and like nut butters as well, or have your fruit. It's about making sure you've got a little bit of car, a little bit of fat, a little bit of protein. So don't just have a piece of fruit on its own, put some nuts with it, or you know, have something else that is going to give you that, or have a protein shake or a protein bar. Just be wary of some of those. Some of them are just sugar.

Yeah. Good call.

So we're gonna do rapid fire. So your options are yes, no, or it's complicated. Bloating after meals is just something women have to deal with.

No.

Good. Thank God. What you eat genuinely affects your mood, and can contribute to anxiety.

Yes.

Cutting out gluten or dairy is good for most girls.

No.

That's good because I like bread. Skipping breakfast is fine if you're not hungry.

It's complicated.

Yes. What what is is it good? Is it okay to skip a meal?

I would say it's not ideal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Especially one that's in the morning.

Yeah, it's difficult if you're not hungry. But I think figuring out ways around that or understanding why you might not be hungry or what you can do to offset that.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's not ideal to skip it.

Yeah, but fair enough.

Yeah.

You can trust a nutritional influencer who isn't a qualified nutritionist or a dietitian on social media.

No.

Eating sugar or carbs causes acne?

It's complicated.

Okay.

Look, I think things can contribute. I think with acne, it's very difficult to pull that apart. But if there's some if it's driven by something in your gut or with your hormones, sugar or carbs or any food, it it can exacerbate things. But I wouldn't say it's it that don't cause them.

Yeah. A high protein diet is good for teenage girls?

It's complicated.

It is possible to get enough enough iron without eating red meat. Which we kind of covered.

It's yeah, it's kind of complicated. Also, sorry. Being very vague.

No, that's alright. Um, intermittent fasting is safe for a teenage girl?

No.

Yeah. Is it safe for an adult woman? I've seen a lot of stuff on that it's quite it's okay for men, but women don't

I think a lot of the a lot of the well, most of the research is done on men.

Yeah.

So I think the bottom line is we really don't know enough.

Yeah.

And we have a whole different metabolic system than men do. So the impacts can be much more severe if we don't get it right. I think it can be okay for adult women, depending on how you do it and what support you've got and what you're eating and all of those things. But it's not something you would I would recommend anyone just diving into.

Totally fair. Probably not.

Particularly when you're growing still.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is there a food that gets a completely unfair reputation that deserves a full public apology?

Yeah, I'm gonna say carbs. Carbs are so good.

I would say fats.

Yeah, fats too.

Yeah

Yeah. But I think carbs, because fat I think is always going to be present in other foods. So if you're eating, if you're focusing on protein and you're eating a lot of yogurt, you're gonna get fat. So there's always gonna be an element of that. But carbs, you can completely cut that out of your diet if you wanted to. Um and I just think that messaging has gone too far.

Yeah, fair enough. Yeah.

I love food so much. Food. Food is tied to memories for me. Like a lot of time, food transports me back to like a time and a place. And if I like close my eyes and I eat that food, like it transports me back. Do you have a kind of food that like has the ability to take you back somewhere that you love?

I don't know if there's anything specific. I do always think about this pudding that my dad used to make when we were little. And it was like really syrupy, and I don't even really know how he made it, to be honest. Hasn't made it. Dad, this is your I need that

I need the recipe, Dad.

No, I don't even want the recipe. I told him to make It'd be those types of things or things that I had, you know, like white bread sandwiches. Those types of nostalgic foods. I wouldn't say there's anything particularly sort of nutritious that would I think it's not always the way either. It's those things that give us nostalgia.

Kind of always tastes better when someone else makes it too.

100%.

Yeah. All right, last question. If you could go back and tell your teenage self one thing about this topic, what would it be and how long did it take you to find it out?

I think it just don't buy into the fad dieting. You know, all of and I guess we still see that now. It's just in a different disguise. It's not called a diet anymore, it's called a lifestyle or a protocol. Just don't buy into it because it's difficult. It's gonna make you obsessive about what you're putting in your body, and it's not sustainable or beneficial in the long run. So just try and appreciate your body as it is, as not something to be fixed, and give it the right fuel to get you through every day.

Amazing. Yeah. Holly, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

I have loved this conversation.

I'm glad. Me too.

Fantastic.

Thanks for listening to this episode of literacy. Please take a moment to subscribe to our YouTube channel and follow along on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts so you can listen on the go. For episode resources or downloads on how to continue these conversations, head to our website, literacy.com, L-I-T-H-E-R-A-C-Y.com. Make sure you're following us on Instagram at literacy.pod and on TikTok at literacy so you don't miss a thing during the week. And most importantly, if you've got a friend or family member that would be interested in this episode, share it with them because we believe an informed girl is a protected girl.